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发表于 2010-9-20 12:45:36
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Dienekes博克中的热议！
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/
onur said...
We propose that the complex genetic landscape of Central Asian populations results from the movements of eastern, Turkic-speaking groups during historical times, into a long-lasting group of settled populations, which may be represented nowadays by Tajiks and Turkmen.
Turkmens are nomadic (at least they were so until being forcibly largely settled by the Soviets during the 20th century) and Turkic-speaking. Do they say that Turkmens may genetically represent the pre-Turkic settled populations of Central Asia?
Another thing that has caught my eye here is that here they mention pre-Turkic settled populations but omit pre-Turkic nomads. Most of pre-Turkic Central Asia was already nomadic, represented by Sakas/Scythians, so Turkic expansion in Central Asia was mainly into an already nomadic area and culture.
BTW, wish they had included more countries from Central Asia and the surrounding territories in their analysis.
Wednesday, September 15, 2010 3:54:00 PM
onur said...
how some Uzbeks are Iranian-like
Dieneke, is the population abbreviated as TUR Turkmen? If yes, it seems Turkmens too are genetically Central Asian Iranian-like (thus I guess answering my question in my previous post, but still they should have also mentioned pre-Turkic nomads in addition to pre-Turkic settled populations). Also if they are Turkmen, are they the only Turkmen population tested? If they are the only Turkmen population tested, then this doesn't tell us much about Turkmens in general.
Thursday, September 16, 2010 2:08:00 AM
princenuadha said...
Maybe pre-turkic populations settled in the region a long time ago but had a nomadic lifestyle (within the region).
"If they are the only Turkmen population tested, Then this doesn't tell us much about turkmans in general."
Yes indeed.
Thursday, September 16, 2010 3:31:00 AM
onur said...
Maybe pre-turkic populations settled in the region a long time ago but had a nomadic lifestyle (within the region).
You mean they used the word "settled" to mean being long-lasting in the territory instead of living in immovable houses? I don't think that is the case as they use "settled" together with "long-lasting".
Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:55:00 PM
ashraf said...
Thanks a lot for this article and all the articles of the last month (especially the one about Carlssen&democracy...)I should say that the link below(that you provided)refering to the mythology of central Asian peoples (is it about ergenekon and the shewolf ashina...?) does not work.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu ... n6/41622/41622.html
Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:02:00 PM
ashraf said...
Please note on the map that while Turkic speaking UZT do LACK the middle eastern green component all his Iranic speaking 4 neighbors (TJA, TJU, TDU, TDS) do have that middle eastern green component=> a proof for a middle eastern origin for Indo-Iranian (and also Indo-European) languages phylum (also please note that many of the technology+husbandry+agriculture+religion+some animals+some metals... words in both Iranic&Turkic languages[tshelik, eker, oekuez, koemuer, kam, kedi, ketshi, kaz, din, tshelebi...]have an ultimate western Asian origin and do have same parallels in western Asian languages such as Semitic and the latter also provides etymologies for those words that are not explainable by Turkic and-to a lesser extent-Iranic etymology)
Thursday, September 16, 2010 7:27:00 PM
onur said...
Ashraf, "din" entered Turkic languages from the Arabic version of the word and after the Islamization of Turkic-speaking peoples just as it entered any other language of the world with Islamization, so it doesn't prove your point. But you are probably right about "oekuez", "koemuer", "kedi", "kaz" and "tshelebi" (these words are probably ultimately from either an Indo-European, Semitic or any other West Asian-Mediterranean language). OTOH, "Tshelik" may be an originally Turkic word and may have entered Persian from a Turkic language (probably from an Oghuz Turkic language during the last millennium). I don't know the etymology of "kam", so I cannot say anything about it and would be appreciated if you inform me about it. You are probably wrong about "ketshi" as it is probably an originally Turkic word. As to "eker", I have never heard of such a word, so I can't say anyhing about it.
Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:21:00 PM
Aaron said...
I don't know how Ashraf arrives at his linguistic conclusions based on that map.. which clearly shows both blue and green in most of the regions.
Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:38:00 PM
ashraf said...
mr Onur
According to Gamkrelidze&Ivanonv "eker" and "ketshi" are indo-european/semitic common words.
You know that agriculture and animal domestication was "discovered" in the fertile crescent area (and also metallurgy first appeared in Anatolia)and thus the words connected with agriculture, metal and husbandry diffused to central Asia either by demic or/and by cultural diffusion as wandeworts.
The words "ek,ekmek,eker"=to sow are connected with proto Semitic "akar" (field) proto Indo-European "agr" (field) and also Sumerian "agar" (field)=>indirect loanwords ie wanderworts.
Same the word "ketshi" also do descend (still according to Gamkrelidze&Ivanonv) from proto indo-european "ghaid" which itself is a "loanword" from proto Afro-Asiatic "gayd"(goat, kid)
I know that "din" is an Arabic "loanword" I spoke about old Persian "dena" (religion) which is not explainable by iranic etymology but has Semitic etymology and connected derivative words such as "dayna, daynu, dayn" from ps "dyn"=rule, justice.
Turkish "kam" cames from indo-iranian "shrama"=self hurt (Sogdian "shaman", Sanskrit "shraman")
As for Turkish "tshelik" (the other words for metals in Turkish are also "loanwords" like "kalay", "kurshun", "bakir","guemuesh" and that's normal cause metallurgy "urheimat" is Anatolia and not eastern Siberia...) I think that here too we should look for an Anatolian origined "wanderwort" and an etymology from a language of that area (ie Anatolia, Caucasus and Western Asia as a whole) for the obvious reasons I explained (ie eastern Siberia recieved metallurgy from Anatolia) and the Turkic etymology does not look convincing (ie from "tshel"=to hit)+the Turkish words that start with "tsh" many times end up being "loanwords" as if proto Turkic forms could not start with "tsh".
So I have a (personal) speculation/proposition that it's connected with Persian "tshiling"(an iron tool) or Arabic "silk" (wire) [the "tsh" form could be explained by a loan from Aramaic]
mr Aaron:
That blue (if it's the same dark blue showed in Behar's study)is too old (its genesis is very old) to fit with bronze age proto indo-europeans who have a language that contained words for both agriculture&metallurgy while the dark blue appears as a very old component that had its genesis by paleolithic times and thus it should be a primitive basic language consisting of some hundred of monosyllabic onomatopeic sounds and that's why this language was completly submerged by the advancing anatolian farmers (light blue component=>languages such as khattic, pelasgian, vasco-aquitano-iberian...) and then by the bronze age indo-european "warriors"
And according to some linguists (I forget his name but it could be Kalevi Wiik?) traces of this very old language could only be found in some substrate words amongst some isolated Saami groups.
Thursday, September 16, 2010 10:03:00 PM
onur said...
I haven't read Gamkrelidze or Ivanov, so I cannot make any comment on their etymologies.
As for Turkish "tshelik" (the other words for metals in Turkish are also "loanwords" like "kalay", "kurshun", "bakir","guemuesh" and that's normal cause metallurgy "urheimat" is Anatolia and not eastern Siberia...)
"kalay": like "din", loanword from Arabic during the Islamic times of Turkic peoples, so it is irrelevant
"kurshun": a word of obscure origins, still, it may be originally Turkic
"bakir": probably ultimately descended from a West Asian language (Eteocypriot?) and also cognate with English "copper" (from Latin "aes Cyprum")
"guemuesh": probably originally a Turkic word
Thursday, September 16, 2010 10:48:00 PM
ashraf said...
Thank you (I quoted some sections of Gamkrelidze&Ivanonv book in other forums) but the difficulity is that there is no proto Altaic nor even proto Turkic roots that could explain the etymology of "kurshun" and "guemuesh"+ the fact that "plomb" and "argent" metallurgy did not originated in eastern Siberia that's why one will think that a "foreign" source for those words is not impossible.
There was continous contacts in central Asia between various folks and some of Indo-European, Semitic words etc were borrowed so early as proto altaic continuity period such as "oekuez" =ox
Thursday, September 16, 2010 11:00:00 PM
onur said...
Turkish "kam" cames from indo-iranian "shrama"=self hurt (Sogdian "shaman", Sanskrit "shraman")
How?
Friday, September 17, 2010 12:29:00 AM
Andrew Oh-Willeke said...
I think it is going to be quite hard to get a solid grip on the chronology and sequencing of the migrations, and to tie linguistic evidence to genetic evidence, until we have better archeology from the region, which is astonishingly unexplored given its importance it putting together a lot of important puzzles (Indo-European origins, South Asian migration waves, Mesolithic Eurasian activity, etc.), presumably mostly not because the evidence isn't out there, but because local political conditions were not conducive to doing the work once people figued out that there ought to be something worth finding out there. It seems as if there was a considerable period in which these civilizations were very developed for civilizations that left no writings behind.
Current linguistics and current genetic makeups simply lack much power to tell you when they arrived on the scene in the period before we have good historical records.
I have educated guesses, and I suspect that anyone who looks at the data is bound to develop those, but without some solid carbon dated traces of ancient material culture (or even better, ancient DNA) in some of these areas with little reported archeology, it is hard to know.
A few preliminary academic writings a glanced now and then (sorry, citations lost), translated from Russian from the Caspian Sea area is suggestive of Egyptian influence and megalithic activity far further into Central Asia than one would ordinarily imagine from a pretty ancient date. If I were to pick one area where I would expect to be really surprised by new findings in a way that might change the overall picture, this would be it.
Friday, September 17, 2010 1:33:00 AM
ashraf said...
There are what are called "sound shifts" for example Greek "bio" (life) Latin "vita" and Sanskrit "jiya" old irish "bethu" old english "cwic"[read quick] cognates that descend from the same constructed (but its more collect to call it guessed) proto indo-european root *gwey which means "to live"
Note that those cognates of the descendant ie languages do not all mean "life" but semantically have various meanings from "live" to "world"
This great variability of descending ie words is explained by Gamkrelidze&Ivanonv by the fact that indo-european descending languages are in fact indo-european languages spoken by local pre ie speaking folks who outnumbered the (logically as established in Europe and India since paleolthic and neolithic and they can not be numerically submereged by the bronze age indo-european migrating wanderers[see Turkic languages expansion]) ie speaking newcomers (and that's could explain why proto indo-european laryngeals have been lost in indo-european descending languages except the anatolian and perhaps the armenian branch cos those 2 were "indigenous" to the pie urheimat and thus have conserved original phonetics of proto indo-european)
[note that this pie root *gwey is connected by comparativist linguists with afro-asiatic (there is still no constructed ie guessed proto afro-asiatic roots) and proto semitic *Hay=>to live, life]
Such sound shifts are very common example spirantization: t=>s
satemization k=>s (this is useful to explain some pie/paa sound shifts)
The word "kam" was most likely inherited from a centum ie language and as you know Turkic words can not start with the sound "sh"=>all the words that start with "sh" in Turkic are "loanwords".
As for "copper" according to Bernal citing Chantraine it could be Semitic related to Hebrew "gopher" and Arabic "shufr" which means "copper" (proto Semitic "p" evolved into modern Arabic "f" as for "sh" it is an indice for this word being borrowed from another Semitic language like Aramaic)
For more explanation please take a look at the threads below:
http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?p=84700#post84700
http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?p=86523#post86523
For the last link please take a look especially ate the google books I have posted.
http://anthrocivitas.net/forum/showthread.php?p=85501#post85501
Friday, September 17, 2010 12:03:00 PM
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Friday, September 17, 2010 12:05:00 PM
ashraf said...
Please take orthography and other mistakes into account since I wrote quickly.
For example the first paragraphe should be:
"There are what are called "sound shifts" for example Greek "bio" (life) Latin "vita" and Sanskrit "jiya" old irish "bethu" old english "cwic"[read quick] ARE ALL cognates that descend from the same constructed (but its more CORRECT to call it guessed) proto indo-european root *gwey which means "to live"
Note that those cognates of the descendant ie languages do not all mean "life" but semantically have various meanings from "AGE" to "world"
Friday, September 17, 2010 12:08:00 PM
onur said...
The word "kam" was most likely inherited from a centum ie language and as you know Turkic words can not start with the sound "sh"=>all the words that start with "sh" in Turkic are "loanwords".
Then maybe "kam" was inherited from Tocharian languages (a centum IE branch).
Friday, September 17, 2010 4:08:00 PM
onur said...
As for "copper" according to Bernal citing Chantraine it could be Semitic related to Hebrew "gopher" and Arabic "shufr" which means "copper" (proto Semitic "p" evolved into modern Arabic "f" as for "sh" it is an indice for this word being borrowed from another Semitic language like Aramaic)
The English word "copper" directly descends from Latin "cuprum" which in turn evolved from Latin "aes Cyprium" (literally "metal of Cyprus"; I misspelled the word "Cyprium" above: there is an 'i' between 'r' and 'u'). "Copper", "cuprum" and "aes Cyprium" all have the same meaning: copper. But the name of the island of Cyprus may be descended from the Semitic word for copper. Its opposite may also be true: as in Latin, the Semitic word for copper may be descended from the name of the island of Cyprus, which may originally be an Eteocypriot word. There are many other possibilities too, but I don't want to go into too much detail.
Friday, September 17, 2010 4:16:00 PM
onur said...
The Turkic word for copper "bakir" (it is actually not the only Turkic word for copper, "mis" [directly descended from the Persian word for copper "mis"] is today more prevalent in Turkic languages, but it is possible that "bakir" was the only word for copper in pre-Islamic Turkic languages and was partially replaced by "mis" during the Islamic era of Turkic languages) may ultimately be descended from an ancient form of the name of the island of Cyprus through a metathesis from "*kapir" or "*kupir", 'p' evolving into 'b' at the beginning of the word as is the usual rule in Turkic languages (though it is "pakir" in Kyrgyz language, but don't know whether it is a preservation of the original form or a later evolution from "bakir").
Sorry, Dieneke, I had to divide my comment into two because of its length.
Friday, September 17, 2010 4:18:00 PM
onur said...
Ashraf, do you have full access to the Behar et al. 2010 paper?
Saturday, September 18, 2010 2:40:00 AM
ashraf said...
Thanks for the informations as for your question the answer is "no"
Since I would post an answer to your question I may also add this short quotation from Martin Bernal's book about the wanderwort "copper"/"bakir":
"Gamkrelidze and Ivanov also propose two etymologies that suggest some Sumerian metallurgy was introduced to PIH speakers.
The first is PIH *r(e)ud[h] “red, copper, ore” from the Sumerian urudu.
They claim convincingly that metal names often came from color terms.
In this connection, it is interesting to note that in a bilingual vocabulary the Eblaite gloss on the Sumerian urudu was kapalu/kaparu.
This is clearly derived from the West Semitic kpr, a root with many meanings.
One is found in the Hebrew kop(p)er “henna” used for red dye.
If kop(p)er “red” also meant “copper” Kypros/Cyprus seems to be a West Semitic name for the island famous for its copper, rather than the toponym originating the metal name found in the Latin cuprum"
Saturday, September 18, 2010 9:24:00 PM
onur said...
This is clearly derived from the West Semitic kpr, a root with many meanings.
One is found in the Hebrew kop(p)er “henna” used for red dye.
If kop(p)er “red” also meant “copper” Kypros/Cyprus seems to be a West Semitic name for the island famous for its copper, rather than the toponym originating the metal name found in the Latin cuprum"
Many things are possible, but I think we have gone off topic enough, so better end this discussion here, thanks for the information sharing.
Sunday, September 19, 2010 2:44:00 AM
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Sunday, September 19, 2010 2:47:00 AM
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Sunday, September 19, 2010 2:54:00 AM
onur said...
Ashraf, I asked you about Behar et al. because you seemed to me to know something that I didn't know about it based on something you wrote in anthrocivitas forum. You write there, "Component amongst Anatolian Turks (the tested ones were Turkmen and less Turk component should be expected for the bulk of Anatolian Turks)."
Firstly, you wrote this only for the autosomal study samples of Turks (excluding the Y-chromosome and mtDNA samples of Turks), didn't you? It is obvious from the context that by Turkmen you mean Turkey Turkmens here. What I especially want to ask you is from where you learned that the tested Turks in Behar et al. were all Turkey Turkmens, as I found no information about the sub-ethnic identities and locations of the tested Turks in all the freely accessible material of the Behar et al. paper.
Sunday, September 19, 2010 3:18:00 AM
Achaean said...
On the origin of the name of Cyprus:
[Middle English coper, from Old English, from Late Latin cuprum, from Latin Cyprium (aes), Cyprian (metal), from Cyprius, of Cyprus, from Greek Kuprios, from Kupros, Cyprus.]
Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition
--------------->I believe this pretty much settles it.
Sunday, September 19, 2010 10:04:00 PM
onur said...
Achaean, what you write is not about the origin of the name of Cyprus, but about the origin of the English word "copper", and this is something that is already settled.
Sunday, September 19, 2010 10:15:00 PM |
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发表于 2010-9-19 21:57:28
